Transcript
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, “WHEN HARRY MET SALLY”)
MEG RYAN: (As Sally Albright) I don’t want to spend the rest of my life in “Casablanca,” married to a man who runs a bar.
BILLY CRYSTAL: (As Harry Burns) You’d rather be in a passionless marriage…
RYAN: (As Sally Albright) And be the first lady of Czechoslovakia.
JOEL ROSE, HOST:
That, of course, is Meg Ryan and Billy Crystal in “When Harry Met Sally” arguing about the iconic final scene of another great movie, “Casablanca,” and proving that even the films we think we all agree on can still spark debate and disagreement in our relationships. So for this week’s Cineplexity, we wanted to talk about movies that have tested the bonds of love. We have rounded up some of the usual suspects – Marc Rivers, who produces these segments, and Kathryn Fink, a film fan and producer on ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. Welcome to you both.
MARC RIVERS, BYLINE: Thank you.
KATHRYN FINK, BYLINE: Hello.
ROSE: So, Marc and Kathryn, you are both in long-term relationships. What are your movie-watching habits like with your significant others? And, Marc, I guess, you have volunteered to start.
RIVERS: So, you know, I will say, obviously, huge film fan. I can spend a lot of my days just being at home and watching movies. And my girlfriend, whom I love – and every day with her is a joy. My girlfriend, she does not watch movies alone. And that, to me, was like meeting someone who doesn’t eat bacon. You know, it’s like I knew those people were out there, but I didn’t know that I would ever meet one, let alone start dating one (laughter).
ROSE: And you of all people, Marc.
RIVERS: Exactly. Yeah, so God’s test for me. But no, we’ve watched a number of movies together, and it has sparked some very interesting discussion and debate, but I find it – I find these debates very healthy.
ROSE: All right, Kathryn, what about you? What are some of your watching habits?
FINK: So, like Marc, I’m also the film bro in my relationship. When my partner and I first started dating, she basically was like, I really don’t watch movies that are not about, like, romance and sex. And, like, that’s an and not an or. Like, she needs sex…
RIVERS: You need both. Yeah.
FINK: …In the movie. Like, she does not want a slow burn. She doesn’t want it to be two hours of longing. She also is very averse to what I would call – what – actually, what she calls boy movies. So that is sci-fi, mob movies. These are all things I care about. And so, you know, to her credit, over the last five years, she has really expanded her horizons. But that was kind of a challenging starting point for me. I actually had a big win earlier this year. You know, I mentioned she doesn’t like boy movies. That includes “The Lord Of The Rings” trilogy.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, “THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING”)
CATE BLANCHETT: (As Galadriel) In the land of Mordor, in the fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Sauron forged in secret a master ring to control all others.
FINK: And she finally agreed to sit down and watch all of the films in one day. And you know what? She actually like it.
RIVERS: What a magical day.
ROSE: Let’s get to some more specifics here. Kathryn, have there been any films that sparked, like, a disagreement with your partner or that just, like, did not go as well as you hoped?
FINK: Yeah, so like I mentioned, I, you know, have kind of helped broaden her horizons in terms of genres and subject matter. And…
RIVERS: She’s lucky to have you.
FINK: Yeah, you know, I agree, and I think she would agree to my credit. I have definitely pushed a little too far a few times, particularly in the horror genre. I took her to see a movie called “Skinamarink,” if you’re familiar…
(SOUNDBITE OF MICROPHONE FEEDBACK)
FINK: …Which is – oh, gosh, it’s like, this trippy, abstract movie with, like, almost no dialogue. These two kids are in their house, and they’re looking for their dad. And objects are disappearing, and you’re seeing all of these shots from strange angles. And there’s some sort of insidious force that is trying to influence the kids at some point in the movie. And look, I’m not…
RIVERS: You were trying to break that relationship off. That was…
FINK: Yeah, I know.
ROSE: (Laughter).
RIVERS: …A troll (ph). That was a real troll (ph).
FINK: And like, “Skinamarink” is not a favorite of mine. I’m not going to defend it necessarily, but she really struggled. There were people who walked out the middle of the theater, and I just know she wanted to be one of them, but she was such a good sport about it. She stuck around. And this is, like, far and away the most experimental movie we’ve watched together, and she hated it. She hated it so much.
RIVERS: “Skinamarink” would be a test for anyone. That’d be a test for, like, Roger Ebert (laughter). May he rest.
ROSE: (Laughter).
FINK: Yeah. And it tested me, too, but you know what? She came back, and she still listens to my, you know, movie suggestions when we’re scrolling through HBO Max on a Friday night.
RIVERS: That’s a strong will. Yeah, I mean, speaking of horror, the movie that I think caused some of the most spirited debate between us was 1976’s “Carrie.”
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, “CARRIE”)
PIPER LAURIE: (As Margaret White) Got Satan’s power.
SISSY SPACEK: (As Carrie White) It has nothing to do with Satan, Mama. It’s me – me. If I concentrate hard enough, I can move things.
RIVERS: Brian De Palma’s “Carrie,” we all know the story, the prom that goes terribly wrong.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, “CARRIE”)
AMY IRVING: (As Sue Snell, shouting) Somebody, open this door. Open this door now.
RIVERS: Film lovers, no doubt, remember one of the film’s first shots, you know, this dreamy, slow-motion tableau of a bunch of lively female high schoolers – or should I say, adult actresses playing high schoolers – hanging out in the locker room. And it’s partly meant to set up Carrie’s loner status in the school. Seen the scene a bunch of times, but my girlfriend who’s coming to it with fresh eyes, she came down hard, and I think, justifiably, on the voyeuristic sort of titillation of the scene, which is certainly there in addition to all the other things going on in the scene. And, you know, I’m just kind of watching this go by. I’m like, oh, what a great shot. And, like, she’s kind of just like, (imitating brakes screeching). Like, wait, wait. What?
ROSE: (Laughter).
RIVERS: Why is he doing this? And I had kind of happened to mention to her that – you know, beforehand that, you know, Brian De Palma was kind of a legendary freak in movies.
(LAUGHTER)
RIVERS: So once she kind of had that knowledge and looked at this, we got into this just long back-and-forth about, you know, just the male gaze and both the kind of feminist attributes and the deficiencies of the story. And she still liked the movie overall, but her criticism really put me on my toes. You know, I had to really think about what the scene was doing and what De Palma’s intentions were and the ways that those intentions didn’t alleviate or erase some of the more problematic elements of the scene. But it was an example of her kind of, like, calling me on my blind spots, as it were. And I think that happens a lot in especially kind of hetero relationships where the man kind of has the luxury of letting certain content kind of just breeze by on screen, whereas women often do not get that luxury.
ROSE: Do you guys have a specific approach to the types of movies that you will watch with your partner? Marc, is there sort of a – do you have any rules around what you pick?
RIVERS: It’s a free-for-all. And I mean, I look at our film viewing together and – as another way to talk about (ph) each other. I remember fondly when we watched Greta Gerwig’s “Lady Bird.” This is her coming-of-age film from 2017, where Saoirse Ronan plays this high school senior who has a tense relationship with her mother, played by Laurie Metcalf.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, “LADY BIRD”)
SAOIRSE RONAN: (As Lady Bird McPherson) I want to go where culture is, like New York…
LAURIE METCALF: (As Marion McPherson) How in the world did I race such a snob?
RONAN: (As Lady Bird McPherson) …Or at least Connecticut or New Hampshire, where writers live in the woods.
METCALF: (As Marion McPherson) You know you couldn’t (ph) get into those schools, anyway.
RONAN: (As Lady Bird McPherson) Mom.
RIVERS: After we watched it, it got my girlfriend to talk about her own complicated relationship with her mother, and that conversation got very emotional. So I think one of the great things about watching films together is it’s another way to get to know her, get to know her thoughts, get to know her feelings. And I never tire of that. So whether we disagree on a movie or not, I think the discussions that can come out of it are always fun for me. So yeah, I have – so I have no strategy.
(LAUGHTER)
RIVERS: My strategy is, will this provoke conversation? Will this provoke debate or some interesting reactions? Then let’s watch it. Even if I come up looking worse for even having recommended it, I think…
ROSE: But it doesn’t sound like you’re, like, trying to dodge the debate.
RIVERS: No, I wade into the debate. You know, I welcome the debate. To me, the most boring thing imaginable would be if I showed her a movie and she just said, OK, it’s fine, and then we just – and we just left it. Like, that’s no fun.
ROSE: Let’s gab about it.
RIVERS: Yeah, let’s have a conversation. Let’s have a debate. Put me on my toes – which she does often.
ROSE: Kathryn, what about you?
FINK: Yeah.
ROSE: Are you leaning into the debate, or are you trying to…
FINK: Yeah.
ROSE: What’re you thinking?
FINK: I mean, you know, I think that I should probably spend a little time watching her favorite movies because…
(LAUGHTER)
FINK: …You know, we spent a lot of time with mine and, you know, sort of an education of sorts of, like, here are the important films I would love for you to see, whether or not she’s moved by them or disgusted by them.
RIVERS: You’re speaking my language, yeah.
FINK: Yeah. But, you know, I’ll give an example. My partner loves the movie “Love Actually.”
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, “LOVE ACTUALLY”)
HUGH GRANT: (As The Prime Minister) If you look for it, I’ve got a sneaky feeling you’ll find that love actually is all around.
FINK: I hate that movie.
RIVERS: It’s one of the worst films of the century (ph).
FINK: I agree.
ROSE: (Laughter) I don’t know, Marc. How do you feel about it?
(LAUGHTER)
RIVERS: That movie is inexcusable.
FINK: Yeah. And there are kind of, like, a string of “Love Actually”-type movies that are not nostalgic for me that she just loves…
RIVERS: Yeah.
FINK: …Because of the romance and the sex and all of that.
RIVERS: The gooey Britishness of it all.
FINK: Yeah. And I think, actually, maybe it’s time for me to take a backseat role and, like, allow her to explain why these movies have moved her so much.
ROSE: Truly, that is love.
RIVERS: That’s very generous of you.
FINK: (Laughter).
ROSE: That was NPR’s Kathryn Fink and Marc Rivers. Thank you both for joining us and happy watching.
RIVERS: Thank you.
FINK: Thank you.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
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